62 Bell Boy 404 Sedan

[sparrowhawk]

Well what the heck. Let's jump in and see if I can get this started.
Hoping to have new floor in and motors running so I can get this in the water ASAP.

[halffast32]

Barry, looks like a great puget sound boat. The twins are just too cool!! I love twin engine applications. I hope to have a double engine set-up on something someday:D (which may change my opinion!)
Keep chewing away at it! Gordon

[BellBoyBob]

Looking really good! Lots to do but this boat is worth it! I restored a 60 404 sedan for a friend (BellBoyJohn) Always more to do but it is looking beautiful already. love to see more pics of yours!

Bob

[BellBoyBob]

Here are more pics of the 60 BB 404 Sedan resto

[BellBoyBob]

More pics of the BB 404 Sedan

[sparrowhawk]

More pics of the BB 404 Sedan

Bob
Really appreciate the pictures. I might change the layout of the sink/stove a little but not decided yet. Mine did not have the stove but I found one last summer.
I really don't like the painted plywood look of the seats and cabinets. I'm considering using mahogany instead. We'll see. Drilled a 3/4" hole near the bottom of the boxed in bow and confirmed that it was full of water. I have to cut a section out and remove all the soaked foam chunks. I'm planning to foam the floor so might just re-foam that also.
The headliner of course was very brittle and came out in pieces. I want to use insulation of some type under the new headliner when I get to it. Really giving some thought to your idea of the removeable windshield on top so I have to make that decision before a new headliner can go in. I also need to check with Marty on how the new Bell Boy emblems he makes attach to the sides as I'd like to extend the new headliner over that area also.
Anyway, I'll try to keep the pictures updated as I progress and any suggestions or information on anything you or others have learned along the way are greatly appreciated. Barry

[BellBoyBob]

Hey Barry:
I agree - I would not paint the plywood again if I were to re-do the resto on John's 404 sedan. On my 404 express, I added a lot more "finished" wood to the cockpit area than it had originally (cockpit floor, transom bench seat and pedestal tops. Really enhances the classic look. I also added a porthole to the cabin door (courtesy of Marty Loken) If you go to my page on this site, you can see those pictures.
I am wondering what you are thinking when you say you want to add a windshield to the top of the cabin (?) Are you planning to relocate the helm to the outside? Also, is there no way to drain the boxed in area of the bow? The sub-floor bulkhead should be drilled to allow any water to run directly to the bilge area, I would think. With the helm where it originally is - up front, on the right - and with a thick, sound absorbing headliner in place and with the cabin door closed, you will be amazed at the quietness of the cabin. In colder weather, this is ideal but it is a trade off. In the warm weather it would be nice to feel the wind and sun while driving! That said, we found with the bow hatch open at a 45 degree angle, it really vents the cabin beautifully.
Cannot wait to see your progress. With the twins running back there, it will look / sound fantastic!
Bob

[sparrowhawk]

Bob
I really like what you did with the wood on yours. I agree that it adds to what I think of as the classic look. I also love the porthole window. I have the extra window on the port side of the door in the original but I'm thinking about leaving one of the two windows out. I would also like to put the door on tracks so it slides open taking up less space. My reason for possibly putting a windshield on top is just one way of making headroom when I do the canvas cover over the rear area. I don't want to move the helm. If I do that I want it removeable though. The area back there is so small it's hard to decide what to do about seating (fishing is important too) but that will be a ways down the road so lots of time to think about it. Barry



Hey Barry:
I agree - I would not paint the plywood again if I were to re-do the resto on John's 404 sedan. On my 404 express, I added a lot more "finished" wood to the cockpit area than it had originally (cockpit floor, transom bench seat and pedestal tops. Really enhances the classic look. I also added a porthole to the cabin door (courtesy of Marty Loken) If you go to my page on this site, you can see those pictures.
I am wondering what you are thinking when you say you want to add a windshield to the top of the cabin (?) Are you planning to relocate the helm to the outside? Also, is there no way to drain the boxed in area of the bow? The sub-floor bulkhead should be drilled to allow any water to run directly to the bilge area, I would think. With the helm where it originally is - up front, on the right - and with a thick, sound absorbing headliner in place and with the cabin door closed, you will be amazed at the quietness of the cabin. In colder weather, this is ideal but it is a trade off. In the warm weather it would be nice to feel the wind and sun while driving! That said, we found with the bow hatch open at a 45 degree angle, it really vents the cabin beautifully.
Cannot wait to see your progress. With the twins running back there, it will look / sound fantastic!
Bob

[BellBoyBob]

Barry:
I actually like the double window configuration of the 404 sedan. Since the helm is inside and way up front, its nice to be able glance out the back or use a rear view mirror to see whats going on behind - especially if you are towing tubers / skiers. We also thought about dual benches running fore and aft on both sides of the outer area. This would, of course, mean that the cabin door set up would have to be of the pocket (sliding) door variety. The hardware is available. I would E-mail Marty at Island Boat Shop about that. If you were to go that way, you could "even up" the portholes in the left bulkhead and cabin door so that when it slid open, you would still have the window for viewing. When I open John's cabin door, the glass lays over the glass of the bulkhead window but doesn't line up cleanly... An alternative would be to design the benches outside so that they could fold down against the wall of the outside and then the cabin door could swing out and latch in the open position against the bulkhead.
Best,
Bob

[sparrowhawk]

Barry:
I actually like the double window configuration of the 404 sedan. Since the helm is inside and way up front, its nice to be able glance out the back or use a rear view mirror to see whats going on behind - especially if you are towing tubers / skiers. We also thought about dual benches running fore and aft on both sides of the outer area. This would, of course, mean that the cabin door set up would have to be of the pocket (sliding) door variety. The hardware is available. I would E-mail Marty at Island Boat Shop about that. If you were to go that way, you could "even up" the portholes in the left bulkhead and cabin door so that when it slid open, you would still have the window for viewing. When I open John's cabin door, the glass lays over the glass of the bulkhead window but doesn't line up cleanly... An alternative would be to design the benches outside so that they could fold down against the wall of the outside and then the cabin door could swing out and latch in the open position against the bulkhead.
Best,
Bob
Some good thoughts Bob. Actually if I put the door on tracks it can move as far as I want it to so aligning the windows would not be a problem. I have a couple possible bench seat arrangements but I want to mock them up when I get to that point so I can make the choice. I also want to include fold out steps in the seating for easier entry/exit. Should make it easier for my first mate. LOL Barry

[BellBoyBob]

Barry:
You are so right about entry / exit issues with the 404! Guests have wondered if their child -bearing / fathering years were suddenly ended after trying to gracefully board the family boat. While my dad (the original owner) did nothing to accommodate the guests, let alone his own family when it came to getting into the cockpit area, we all just got used to the big jump down onto the floor year after year! With the addition of the rear cockpit bench, the entry problem is resolved. We simply step onto the bench and then into the boat. With John's sedan, we did not consider an outside bench at the time of restoration for space reasons. He opted for the Garelick step, mounted on the left and right outside wall that can fold upwards, out of the way when not in use. I use one as a foot rest under the helm (see helm pic in my profile) They are really sturdy and the wood step can be sanded and stained to match the other wood work. I think a side bench would be the best solution for the 404 sedan layout.
Best,
Bob

[sparrowhawk]

It's a long step down to the floor but I can tell you for sure you don't want to miss the stringer when you step in with the floor out. LOL
Got the rest of the cabin gutted today. Now comes the fun part. Sanding off the fiberglass bits that bonded the wood to the hull and getting everything clean enough for the new floor. I have about 2 1/2 days into stripping it out so far. Fortunately it came to me with a lot of the floor already pulled out. (Thanks Bill) Barry

[sparrowhawk]

Well I haven't made much progress the last week. Just picking away when I get an hour here or there. Made an interesting discovery though. With all the rough work done removing most of the floor, cabinets, seats and bulkhead I have started the sanding and removal of all the little stuff. With the floor out I planned to clean and sand over the original fiberglass that held the floor down along the edges to the hull. I was suprised to find some of this coming off in chunks and at times I could pull long strips off of the hull sides. Turns out that when the floor was layed whoever did it was either in a hurry or didn't want to use too much resin. This has to be about the driest layup I've ever seen. I believe somebody just laid the strips of matt and cloth over the edge of the floor ply and brushed on a little resin without regard to how much penetration they were achieving. Of course this means I couldn't just lay over it so I will probably have a day into prying and tearing up as much of the dry material as possible. Then I will have to sand the remainder down to the hull roving. Whenever I lay strips of fiberglass I always lay it out on a piece of cardboard and paint the resin on both sides before putting it in place. That way I'm sure of no dry spots and when worked in properly with a brush, squeege or roller I know I have a good bond.
Barry

[Yardman]

Barry, looks like lots of grinding/sanding ahead. I wonder on the seam between the deck and hull if there was enough gap that the resin just dripped through? Without some kind of backing behind the seam the stuff seems to run down hill. Just a thought . - Ross

[sparrowhawk]

Ross
You are right about there being a large gap between the floor and hull. They didn't even try to taper it along the edge to fit. Unfortunately that was not the problem. If the resin had run through the fiberglass it wouldn't be dry all the way through and the remains of the resin would have been under the floor. Actually it just didn't get enough resin and what little it got was not worked in. I will fit the edges of the new floor better before bonding it in and I will make the bonding strips wider to get a strong bond to the hull.
As you mentioned, a lot of sanding first and then fitting the new bulhead before the floor. I didn't realize until I got it apart that the bulkhead extended down over the stringers to the bottom of the hull. I guess the first boat is always a learning experience. LOL Barry

[BellBoyBob]

Barry:

A question:

Since I was able to salvage John's 404 sedan floor and cabin bulkhead, I never had to rip everything out as you are doing. When the bulkhead was exposed after the floor was removed, did the bulkhead sit atop the stringers or was it notched for them and slip all the way down to the hull bottom? How are you planning to replace the bulkhead? In two pieces, left and right? Did you decide on the new cabin configuration? I am thinking of building a helm and companion consul for the outer cockpit of my BellBoy. I will attach a picture of Chuck's Farallon cockpit here. I would follow this idea and then split the cabin door down the middle as he did to open the halves against the consul sides. This would give me more room to flush mount the GPS and radio, plus give me some bulkhead depth to mount a marine radio and speakers.
Always more to do but so much fun!!

Best,

Bob227

228

229

[sparrowhawk]

Bob
The bulkhead was fitted right down to the hull. I haven't made the final decision on the door yet but am leaning towards possibly splitting it horizontally and still using the "pocket door" concept. That would allow me to open only the top half for circulation while keeping the little people contained when my attention is on piloting the boat. I'm just at the point of having to make that decision and figuring out door opening size and placement. I will do the bulkhead in two pieces to keep it simple to install.

Oh yeah, Chuck. How long is the extension cord to run that Microwave? :D
Barry

[BellBoyBob]

Thanks for the info. Always good to have as much of that as possible when embarking on a rip out!! I found more pics of the two 404's. Thought you might enjoy...

Bob

[sparrowhawk]

Bob
Love the pictures. Can you email me the second one (115_1574) so I can print it out and hang it on the wall by my desk to remind myself how great it's going to be once the work is done? LOL Thanks Barry
barryobates@yahoo.com

[sparrowhawk]

I finally got to do compression tests on both of my Bearcats. Only one cylinder on one of the motors was down a little. By the time I did the other three cylinders and checked the first one again it had already come up over 20lbs so I think once I run it it will be ok. Think I lucked out on these. I'm not taking any chances with the water pumps. I got two new impellers from BillR so those will go in before I try and start them.
I'm hoping to start putting the bulkhead back next week. Still trying to decide how to do the door so I think I'll just cut a smaller access hole for now. Sometimes I just don't know what I want to do until it's finished. LOL
Barry

[BellBoyBob]

Hey Barry:

How are things going on the sedan? Are you going to use both Bearcats on the boat? I have seen an old BellBoy 404 when I was a kid powered by two Johnson 35's. Sounded fantastic.
Always interested to hear what progress is being made!

Best,

Bob

[sparrowhawk]

Bob
:( Wish I had some progress to report but other things have required my attention lately. I was just thinking about the BB last night. Really need to get back on it. My plan is to eventually use the two Bearcats but I may start with one. Putting the two on really changes the balance on the single axle trailer. I can pick up the tongue and wheel it around the shop. LOL I have another trailer under the other 404 that I am thinking of upgrading and possibly adding a second axle to just for this Sedan. I think trailer brakes would be a good thing also. I'm about to do a rush transom replacement on my 14C powercat so I can put a long shaft Bearcat on it and get it in the water. Planning to price out marine plywood in the next day or so. I want to go with a 2" transom on the on the Power Cat as I am raising it about 5" in the center to 20" while hoping to maintain about 18" over the twin hulls so I can use two 35 Johnsons when the mood strikes. Barry

[BellBoyBob]

Hey Barry:

Yes, the BB balanced on a single axle trailer is a joy to manuever around the driveway UNLIKE the tandem design shown here. The tires really scrub when you try to turn it by hand. BBJohn's 404 sedan is on a single and it is a dream. Can you adjust your axle back and forth to accommodate the extra engine? Anyway, just got the new Sony head unit for marine hi-fi and will have to come up with a place to mount it. Not too many areas to choose from that have 7" of depth behind them.

Best,
Bob

[sparrowhawk]

Bob
Manuevering around the shop or yard is easy with the single axle but I think I will still maybe go tandem. The boat sits high on the single axle and a tandem with smaller diameter wheels will drop it down some. Also on the hwy a flat tire is not so exciting an experience. I've had lots of towing experience so that is no problem. Last trailer I pulled over the Golden Gate and though the center of San Francisco was a 45 ft gooseneck behind a long crew cab one ton. Quite a chuckle. Barry

[BellBoyBob]

If sitting low on the trailer is your objective, I would avoid the Holsclaw design as my BB is perched way up on top of the frame. John's BB is slung quite low -maybe 8" or so lower than mine. Here is a shot of his on a custom designed rig that came from Lon who we met through FGNW days.

Best,
Bob

[sparrowhawk]

Bob
John's trailer is more like I have in mind only with a tandem set up closer to the stern of the boat to account for two motors. This also makes the wheel base longer and improves the handling and for me makes it easier to back up. Also I'm thinking that ground clearance is not as important if there is less trailer hanging out behind the rear axle. The only thing I have to be careful of is not dragging the skegs on the ground. LOL I am guessing John has to transport with his motor up?
I think I'll look into the cost of having some channel bent for my main frame rails and just build my own trailer. Channel works better than tubing for making sure all the salt water is cleaned off after use. Barry

[Marvelous]

I am in the single wheel catagory. I moved my axel back one foot from when i bought it also i have a sway bar setup someone welded on. I to like the security of tandem wheels in case of flats but i put new skins on and will keep a close eye out. Anyway just some needless input on my part.:)664

665

[chuckcarey]

John, How much does the BB weight. With the Farallon 21' i think with all of the wood that increased the weight. The 1959 brochure say's 2000 lbs. I thought i had better go with the tandem trailer. She weights 3220 lbs boat & motor only and with trailer total of 4240 lbs. Bruce Bidwell made that nice Burguee for me. What a guy ! I have a extra 2000 lbs that the Ford can pull , so i'am ok there.But i don't plan going over any mountains ! Best, Chuck

[Marvelous]

Hey Chuck i guess i better go and get her weighed. I was hoping i was still in the 2000lbs range but Jeff Ault thinks i have that much weight in paint!

I towed it this morning for the new top and it towed like a dream, of course no fuel or supplies. I am hoping it will work with the single axel at least for a season or two and then i can upgrade to something more current.

[sparrowhawk]

John
Bell Boy's brochure weight on both the Express and Sedan was 1370lbs. Barry

[Marvelous]

Thanks barry,

I should be good to go for awhile. Everything on the trailer is new but on the small side. It did tow real nice this morning though.

[BellBoyBob]

Chuck -
What do you mean, no mountain passes?? Didn't you know the opening day '09 meet will be on Lake Ontario this time??

Bob ;)

[Marvelous]

I have a rule of how many zip codes i will travel to go boating.:)